Creatives Like Us Podcast - Ep:7 Sylvia Prince
“I wanted my children to grow up knowing there is space for them.” - Sylvia Prince
This week on Creatives Like Us, Ange speaks with Sylvia Prince, designer and founder of Sylvia Prince Designs. Sylvia shares her journey from graphic design to launching her own range of Afrocentric cards, created to reflect and celebrate black and brown children, particularly those who are often underrepresented, including children with vitiligo and albinism. She opens up about overcoming perfectionism, the importance of visibility, and the encouragement that helped her finally start her business after years of 'professional' procrastination.
They also discuss the wider impact of Sylvia’s work, including her collaboration with the Vitiligo Society UK to develop school resource packs that support understanding and inclusion. Sylvia reflects on the value of creating work representing real people and experiences and how that representation can make children feel seen and celebrated.
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Links for Slyvia
Website: sylviaprince.com
Instagram: @sylviaprince_designs
Facebook: Sylvia Prince Designs
The Vitiligo Society UK – https://vitiligosociety.org/
Professional Troublemaker by Luvvie Ajayi Jones
Bozoma Saint John and the "Badass Workshop"
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This podcast is hosted by Angela Lyons of Lyons Creative.
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Chapters/Timestamp
Introducing Sylvia Prince
How did you start your business and why?
What made you go for it?
How did your personal trainer help you on your journey?
Who are the catalyst people for you?
Was this your first time at the Black Business Show, what was your experience?
How did you get involved with the Vitiligo Society?
What does the future hold for you?
What would you tell your teenage self?
Transcript
“There's a, there can be a thing that happens when you're the only one in a space, where you do have to contort yourself, because you feel like, actually, I'm the only one, and I have to make sure that I stay here. So then do you then end up sometimes compromising yourself to maintain that position in that space.”
“I understand that those conversations have to be had, but at the same time, it's like teaching white people about racism. It's not my creation.”
Angela
Hello and welcome to Creatives Like Us, where I speak with creatives of colour, who share journeys and stories and ideas, and how they can inspire and open up avenues in creative industries. I'm your host, graphic designer Angela Lyons, and with the help of my guests, I will bring insightful interviews and compelling stories that can inspire you to think about things differently or shape your next move. Being a creative of colour can bring its challenges - highs and lows and in betweens, but this podcast is about amplifying our voices and celebrating together. So are you ready? Let's get started with Creatives Like Us.
Hi and welcome to Creatives Like Us. And today I'm joined with Sylvia. And I met Sylvia at the Black Business show this year. And when I saw her designs, her illustrations, I thought they looked fantastic. And I just thought, I went over and I got some, purchased some straight away. And then I said to her, please, will you come on my podcast? And she said, Yes, straight away. So I'm really, really pleased to have her here today. So Sylvia over to you. Please tell people who you are and what you do.
Sylvia
Thank you for having me. It was lovely to meet you at the Business Show. I'm Sylvia Prince. I am a print-based designer, and I am the creator of Sylvia Prince Limited, which is an Afrocentric range of cards, targeted specifically to black and brown children, but I include children who are living with vitiligo and children with albinism in my card range as well.
Angela
I'd love to know a bit more about that and why you actually introduced that into your range. That's great. Could you tell me a little bit about how you started and why you started? Because I think everyone's got their origin story of why they went into business. We know business is quite tough and quite hard, but we also do it because it comes from a passion somewhere within. So how did you start, and why did you start?
Sylvia
Okay, so I've got two children. I've got a daughter who is now 15 and a son who's 12. When they were really little, when people were still giving out birthday party invitations. I always found it difficult to find party invitations featuring black children, and specifically featuring black children who were interested also, in the things that my children were interested in. So my daughter was never keen on like being a ballerina, and my son wasn't into football or any kind of sports whatsoever, so I just used to make my own.
Angela
Oh, that's so cool.
Sylvia
Yeah. So parents at school were like, Oh, these are really nice invitations, where did you get them? And what happened was, the last invitation that I did for my son actually featured this boy here.
Angela
I’ll just tell everyone, because I think some people on audio, not people watching on video, but the boy who Sylvia points to is a little black boy, and he's holding an artist palette. He looks very cute.
Sylvia
So it was that character, but he wasn't doing that. He wasn't at all holding an artist palette. But I created this character and put it on his card. And one of my son's best friends is an Asian girl called Naya, and her mum, Nikki, said to me, Oh, this is really great. I find it difficult to find cards with Asian children on them. Yeah. So she was like, she really encouraged me. You should do this. She was one of the people that encouraged me. So I created four characters who were originally based on my son Ruben, my daughter Ella, and Naya's older brother, Ashton and I started with those four characters, showed them to everybody. Everybody said, Yes, Sylvia, these are great. And I sat on that for like, four years.
Angela
Oh wow really!
Sylvia
Yeah. I am a professional procrastinator. Seriously, professional.
Angela
A professional! Wow, wow. There's a time for everything. There's always a time for everything people. But four years is a long time.
Sylvia
This is a lot. It's nothing in my world. And all the time, my husband was saying to me, I thought you was going to do this thing. I thought you were going to do this thing. I've been with my husband over 20 years, and I was with him when I did my degree and when I graduated, it's funny, I said, I'm going to do freelance. I'm going to do, get experience for like, couple of years, and then I've got to branch out on my own. So for the last 20 odd years, he's been saying to me, I thought you're going to do your own thing, Sylvia, I thought you're going to do your own thing.
Angela
He's done talking.
Sylvia
He was encouraging me and another one of the mums at school, Jenny, she's got a company called the Small Jewellery Company. She was encouraging me. And one of my friends who has her own catering company, she was in Lorraine, she was encouraging me as well. And I had all those people saying, why don't you just do this thing? Why don’t you do this? And I was like, Okay.
Angela
You were surrounded by people that wanted to conceive, that see that there was a need for it, and you actually had the passion for it and could do it. It's just….
Sylvia
It was just me.
Angela
It was just you. But do you know what, life happens though doesn't it? Actually as you say, in four years, things happened in four years. But so what happened then? What made you like actually go, I'm gonna do this now?
Sylvia
I did three things. In 2020, I did three things. I read ‘Year of Yes’ by Shonda Rhimes, and she basically just talks about coming out of her comfort zone and just saying yes. She said she's going to spend a year. And every time somebody gives her opportunity or asks her, do you want to do something, she's just gonna say yes, and see where it goes. For those of you who I don't know, anybody who doesn't know Shonda Rhimes is the creator of Scandal, How to Get Away with Murder, Grey's Anatomy. And then I started following on Instagram, Bozoma Saint John, who is, these are all American ladies, by the way, as well, all black ladies.
Angela
Are they? Yeah but inspiration comes from everywhere.
Sylvia
Yeah, it's funny, but she started off as a marketing executive, so she was the Chief Marketing Officer for people like Apple, Uber, Netflix, people like that.
Angela
Big brands then.
Sylvia
And she did a talk at an Apple, an Apple event or something. You know, it's all very dry. Everybody, I say dry now, because everybody's got the black polymer jumpers, it's all very dry. And she went out in this really bright pink dress with a massive afro, and she was just taking up space in that. She was just like, you've just got all this bland. And then it's like, pow. She's just like this burst of energy and colour, quite literally, colour. Her Instagram handle is @baddassboz
Angela
I'll put these to the show notes too, so people can look them up.
Sylvia
She did a workshop called the Badass Workshop, which was like an online thing, and I did that as well. And her thing is about taking up space, because she's a very vibrant personality, she used to go into corporate settings and try and do the gray suit thing, try and fit in. And she would make herself small to fit in the space. And she's like a six foot black woman, dark skinned black woman, and she said that people in her work environments used to look at her sideways and sort of like, there's no other black women in this space that she was in. They used to ‘other’ her anyway.
So she was like, Well, I'm in this space and I'm feeling uncomfortable because I'm trying to be somebody who I'm not. So why am I contorting myself to be in this space and you're not accepting me anyway? I might as well feel comfortable. I might as well be myself. So she used to turn up for work, just wearing whatever she wanted, and people just had to deal with it, because she was getting the job done.
Angela
And they started noticing her more, didn’t they? I bet they started noticing her more.
Sylvia
And then that then goes to her performing at her best because she felt comfortable.
Angela
Yes, yeah, she was, she was ready to take the space, wasn't she? When she felt that she was comfortable, and she realised that - why am I being like all the others when I don't need to be like the others? But that's quite hard in a big corporation, especially in America. I mean, obviously I've not worked in America, but what I hear about working there is quite tough, working corporate. So is she, interestingly, is she, does she have her own business now, or does she still do corporate? Or is it a bit of both?
Sylvia
So she wrote a book last year or year before, she wrote her memoir, you could say, and now she is running her own business. She's just launched some kind of hair care range.
Angela
Oh, wow. Oh, okay, so it's not even marketing. It's like she's branched off to something… that's another thing I think yeah.
Sylvia
She’s doing her own thing. So that was that - I did that workshop, and her book is funny. It was called ‘The Urgent Life’. And that book was like last year or the year before, but when I did her workshop, it was 2020, and she basically said, do the thing. If you're going to do something, just do it. What are you waiting for? That was her thing. Grab life. That's because of her own personal story. Just grab life. And then the third thing I did, which I suppose was maybe the most impactful thing I read a book by one of the Bazoma St John's friends called ‘Professional troublemaker’.
Angela
Ooh interesting title…
Sylvia
The fear fighter manual. And it was written by a woman called Luvvie Ajayi Jones. One of her recent quotes is, “Do not break yourself down into bite sized pieces; let them choke”.
Angela
Oh my gosh. Could you say that again?
Sylvia
“Do not break yourself down into bite sized pieces; let them choke”.
Angela
Wow. Again, that is saying, I'm here. That is really powerful, yeah, wow, wow.
Sylvia
So her book is about fighting fear and taking up space, and how, (and it’s specifically targeted to black women), and it's how as women, and then the intersectionality of black women, we are told or taught from a young age to make ourselves small in order to accommodate other people's feelings. And just ways of being bold, being loud. Don't make other people say, You're too loud. You're too much. She's like, BE too much. BE loud. Yeah.
Angela
Yeah, professional troublemaker.
Sylvia
So that book just pushed me over the edge.
I've always wanted to do graphic design, but in my current profession that I'm working in my full time job, I'm not doing graphic design anymore. I left graphic design in 2012 yeah. When my son was born. I left graphic design. So I found out quite a lot of things about me later on. So perfection is the enemy of progress, and it does not exist.#
Angela
Brilliant.
Sylvia
Luvvie Ajayi Jones. So I'm a perfectionist, but I didn't realise that at the time, yeah? So I was working corporate, in a corporate world, in graphic design, and I was working in the head office, doing employee communications, and what I realised was, as a designer, you're kind of the last person in the line of people making decisions, yeah? And you don't always agree with the decisions that they've made, but you now have to now produce the piece of work that represents their decisions. So somebody will come to you and say they want something, but they're not clear.
Angela
Yeah, especially in corporate!
Sylvia
Because it’s designed by a committee. And when you've got a group of people, right, everybody's got their own idea, nobody's clear. So you produce something, and people just pick it apart. Oh, I'll have a bit of that and a bit of that, and you produce something and it just ends up looking like a monster, or you have to fight really hard to defend your work. And then sometimes I just feel like, why am I here defending my work? It can be really… if you've got that personality, I worked with somebody who used to say her quote was, if they want it ugly, I'll give it to them ugly.
Angela
Yeah, but it's true. I'm gonna get paid at the end of the day!
Sylvia
I'm gonna get paid. And I actually don't care. So why should I care? But I care - so it used to, I realised it was like, it was a bit soul-destroying. It's just like, you just feel, you just feel like people are just pick pick picking at you. And I took it personally, because I'm a perfectionist, but I didn't realise I was doing that. It was somebody years later who basically broke that down when they asked me about my journey, and that's why I wasn't doing design anymore. And I love design. Why are you not doing it anymore? And she said to me, it was a personal trainer that I was seeing seven years ago, and she said to me, what you need to do is you need to do design work for yourself, because you take the criticism so personally, and it's not about you. It's got nothing to do with you. So why are you letting, what has nothing to do with you, stop you from doing what you want to do? So do design, but just do it for yourself, which is my cards. I'm doing it. It's put out there. Nobody can pick it apart and and the professional troublemaker book helped me realise that if you're holding on to perfection, you're never gonna move, you're never gonna do anything.
Angela
And you won't be happy. And there's various forms of happiness, as we know, but it's just one of those things where you'll never be completely happy if you are a perfectionist.
Sylvia
I don't know any artist who is actually 100% happy with their work. Whatever you're doing, a creative field, you can come back and look at it. You finish it today, and you come back and look at it next week, and be like, I would have changed that, or I would have done that. I don't know any artist in any field, music, art, whatever.
Angela
And it's funny, even though people love it, and people have said they love it, like but you could see your work, and you go, Oh my God, I've done that. I've done it too. When I'm doing my magazines, they come out in print. I look at them, I go, Oh my god, I can't believe I left that there. Or no one's noticed it. No one said anything, yeah, it's fine. Everyone said, Oh, it's lovely. It's great. But you're like, Oh my God, oh, why did I do that? So you are just self-critical all the time.
Sylvia
Right, and what I've had to learn to do is just, let stuff go. Once this is out, it’s gone, if I want to change it, let me do another, let me do another card, let me do another character.
Angela
Yeah, that's really interesting. Your personal trainer actually said that because you were going to her for, obviously, health and exercise, and she helped you with your mind too. Isn't that important? Isn't that amazing?
Sylvia
She’s brilliant. Vanessa Alexander, her name was, and it was funny, because I was going to her and I had a health issue, which was I sprained my back when I was about 20, so I've had these back issues. And she said to me, how did you sprain your back? And I said, because my mum is a seamstress, and me and my sister used to sew a lot when we were younger. So I said, I was sat on my floor, bent over, and I was pinning out a pattern on fabric on my floor. And before I realised that I'd been in that same position for about four hours, I was making a suit just bent over, she said to me, what? And you hadn't taken a break? And I said, No, because I was just focused on doing this thing. And she was saying because you just wanted to make it perfect, didn't you? And then she made that arc. I don't even know how she saw it. She made the arc back to why I left my job. Wow. So I'm like, I drive trains. I'm a driving instructor on the trains.
Angela
Hang on a minute. You're a driving instructor?
Sylvia
Yeah, that's what I do. But I work for London Underground, so I'm a driving instructor on London Underground, it's like a It's in no way related to design.
Angela
Wow. That is amazing. That is, do you know what? Every time I talk to you, I’m finding out new things. This is amazing. Sylvia, I just think, Wow. She's just like an amazing person, you are just so cool. You teach people how to drive trains, and then you have your business on the side with your illustrations on. It's not on the side, is it?
Sylvia
It’s my business, but it’s something I…
Angela
So is the the train job, the bread and butter, shall we say?
Sylvia
Yes.
Angela
And then the business, the Sylvia Prince designs, is your passion.
Sylvia
It's my passion. Definitely, absolutely, is my passion. So those are the things that push me over the edge to start.
Angela
That's really cool, because I always ask people what their catalyst connections are, and those were those for you, weren't they? So obviously, the personal trainer and the books you've read and the people, the workshops you've been to, is there anyone else that's made you go, right? This is it? Or this is all? They're all the people. Is there anyone else? Obviously, your husband!
Sylvia
My husband, Nikki Kanani, who's Naya and Ashton's mum, Jenny or June Clark, who was a mum at the school, Rio's mom, she had a small business. She works in IT, and she makes jewellery.
Angela
Okay yeah nice, that's nice yeah.
Sylvia
And then I met people along the way who helped me once I'd started my business. So those people were great, those connections, but the catalyst was when I did my degree, the theoretical part of my degree, I chose to do representation. So I was always interested in stereotypes and colonialism and Empire and how it affects, just layers of how it affects my life. My parents were born in Jamaica. They came to, they came to London on British passports in the 60s.
Angela
You have to get that bit in, obviously, because the Windrush scandal that we know about.
Sylvia
Right in the 60s. So and they had a certain mindset, because they had a colonial education. So we were brought up thinking certain things or being told certain things, and just seeing the disconnect between my mum's experiences to my experiences, and not wanting my daughter, my son, to have those same experiences.
So the first child we had was a girl, so my husband and I were very intentional about not having gender specific things in the house. We didn't buy like Barbie, Cindy dolls. So we didn't buy those kinds of dolls. If we bought her a doll, it would be almost like a rag doll, and it would be a black rag doll. So we were very intentional about stuff that we did. And when we watched television from when she was about three or four, I used to say to a woman watching her program, so used to say, Oh, how many children can you see that look like you? Or how many people can you see that look like me or your dad? So I was getting her to count the black people on the screen in all of the programs she was watching, but so I was trying to put ideas in her head about representation, what was important, because I've got a thing about people being seen and taking up space that goes around to the Bozoma Saint John, the Luvvie Ajayi Jones thing, and it's about representation, and the importance of representation and just children or children being given, I don't know, not validation, but just to be seen. When I was young, I used to get birthday cards with like, little blonde, white girls on them, and it wasn't a thing.
Angela
Oh, yeah. We know that. The one that always used to get me was the one I used to get from church, when you make your Holy Communion and you'd have a little white person kneeling down, and I'd be like, why are they no black people on these cards? I actually think that when I was little, but I just felt because it's a thing. I just left it as a thing, you know, because, like you I suppose my parents didn't tell me these things, or didn't want to talk to me about these things, but yeah, so it's the representation, but I noticed!
Sylvia
And you were ahead of the curve, you were ahead of the curve to even think, why are there no black people? Because for me, it was just, oh, I got a birthday card. I didn't even, it didn't register, because that's how things were. So yeah, and, you know, through my education and stuff, I didn't want my children growing up with that mindset, not knowing that there was space for them and they should expect there to be space for them. So it's lovely and it's sad at the same time, when people see things for black people, and they go, Oh, this is wonderful. There's stuff with black people on it. And it's like that reaction, you shouldn't have to have that reaction. You shouldn't have to have that reaction.
Angela
We shouldn’t. I think, I think that is also, Oh, gosh. Is it a European thing at the moment, or is it worldwide? Because when we think about it, I mean, earlier on this year, I went to Ghana, and obviously it's Africa. They're just black people everywhere. But I spotted a white person. Oh, there's a white person over there. But when I was in Africa, it was just like, there are just black people everywhere. And I loved it. Absolutely loved it. And I thought it was funny, actually, because when I came back at the airport, and I was picking up the luggage from, you know, the belt, and looked when I was like, why are these white people? And I realised I was back in the UK you know? I’m back home.
Sylvia
Home, mmmm, home.
Angela
Yeah, and that's what I yeah, I think I know what you're I know what you're saying. Because I've, I feel quite, I feel sad. Bit like you, you talk to your children about pointing how many black people are there on the TV. I do that too with my children, but now my children are teenagers, and they're like, Oh, mum, you've got to change your attitude a little bit. And I just get a bit like, Yeah, but tell me, where are these people? You know, we, they're not in boardrooms. You might see them on the TV adverts and places like that, but they're not at the top. And we need to, like, start taking that space.
Sylvia
Yeah, or also just doing our own things, in our own spaces, and not feeling the need to be part of what's over there. Yeah, because there's a, there can be a thing that happens when you're the only one in a space, where you do have to contort yourself because you feel like, actually, I'm the only one, and I have to make sure that I stay here. So then do you then end up sometimes compromising yourself to maintain that position in that space. It's complicated. When people make decisions and do the things they do, I can't necessarily judge them, because I don't know what their mindset is. I don't know. Do you see what I mean?
Angela
You don't, you can't judge them physically. Yeah, it's, of course, you don't know what they're going for, how or what their journey is, and how they're there, and you don't know that for and how are they.
Sylvia
It’s easy to get into that space.
Angela
Yes, yes.
Sylvia
And people who don't get it, who don't understand, would be like, Oh, why are you trying to separate yourselves? And it's like, no, I'm not trying to separate anything. You know, you lot didn't include me, so I'm just not trying to be included.
Angela
And I’m going to do my thing now.
Speaking of which, when I saw you at the Black Business Show, that was so cool. Was that your first time? Have you been there before? It was so cool to see all your designs and lots of black faces on cards. So yeah, was it your first time there? Or?
Sylvia
That was my first time exhibiting at a Black Business Show. I'd only ever been to one Black Business Show before. That was a couple of years ago. That was the third trade show that I've participated in. And the reason I did that one was because I wanted to be in a space where my cards were for the audience they were intended for.
Angela
That’s powerful, too, yeah, that’s really nice.
Sylvia
The trade shows that I've been to, you know, my stuff is unapologetically Afrocentric. I've got no white children on my cards, because there's loads of cards with white children on them. So sometimes other trade shows that I've been to, there might be just a couple. Say, there's like, 100 people selling cards, maybe one or two of them have got black people in their cards. And sometimes people, I've noticed the interesting thing, people might come around to my stand and be like, Oh, I've already got black cards in my shop. It's really interesting to see what their perception is of black cards and why I'm doing what I'm doing. Yeah, so I made the point before, you don't go into a shop and you see one card, with one white girl on it, and think we've got one card with one white girl, we don't need any more. But people do that with black cards. Wow, they do. They've like, Oh, I've ticked that diversity box.
Angela
So when you - Sorry, just go back to these trade shows, ae they, are they, like, big shows? Like, say, for example, in like, I was called kind of like, those kind of places or or business design centre, and then shops, like retailers, actually come round and say, who they're going to buy from. Is that, that kind of trade show?
Sylvia
Yeah. So on the first trade show that I did, I had those types of conversations, but then I had a conversation with a buyer from TJ X, and me and her connected, and then my cards ended up being in Australia, Canada and the States.
Angela
Fantastic.
Sylvia
But that was that one connection that we had, and she got it. Sometimes you can speak to people and they're like, Yeah, I get it, but I just found the experience a bit, it can be exhausting.
Angela
Is it exhausting explaining it to people all the time? These are beautiful cards, yeah. Why can't you just go for them? But do I have to always tell a story? I think sometimes black creatives, there's always got to be a little story behind it of why you should do this or why you should do that. Why can't you just accept it?
Sylvia
What's your reasoning? Why did you decide to do these cards? Are you asking the white people why they decided to put white kids on their cards? I understand that those conversations have to be had, but at the same time, it's like teaching white people about racism. It's not my creation. You go and find out. We'll move along. But you can't say that when you’re standing on the stand.
Angela
You gotta still smile and say would you like to see some samples?
Sylvia
So going to the UK Black Business Show, I thought, you know what? It's going to be a different experience. And it absolutely was. It was, I go through moments where, because I have to find time in my own time to go to pop-ups and do events and stuff, sometimes I'm like, I'm gonna give it a rest for now. And also, because it's not my main source of income, I can do that. At some point this year, I was like, Oh, I'm gonna have to wind up this card thing, because this is long an…
Angela
Oh no, don't! Sorry, I’ll let you carry on, carry on!
Sylvia
Or just change, or look at changing the way, and that's what I'm looking at moving forward, changing the way that I do it. But that really reaffirmed lots of things for me, attending that show. It was, it was, it's, do you know, like your experience of going to Ghana, you know, when you're in a space, and it sounds, what I'm going to say is going to sound off. It's so Ad
Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie said she's been interviewed, and she said she didn't realise she was she was black until she went to America.
Angela
Yeahhh, I think I’ve read that.
Sylvia
Because in Nigeria, she’s just Chimamanda.
Angela
Sylvia
She’s not othered. Everybody looks like her. Her skin is not a thing. It's only a thing, when she's in another space. There's a feeling of relaxation that happens when you're around people who look like you, whether you realise it or not.
Anglea
I totally know that, and I totally get that.
Sylvia
And I've, I hear it often when people go to different countries in Africa, if they live in the States, or if they live in the UK, and they just go there and they're like, Oh man, the first thing they always say, Oh man, it was just like black people all around- because they they're not made to feel othered.
Angela
Othered, yeah.
Sylvia
And you're not. It's like you don't feel like you have to…
Angela
Feel uncomfortable? I know I'll go to the countryside, and I know that I might just get looked at. I'm talking about UK countryside, and they will look at me, and I know they want to cross the other side of the road, but I just say morning! And I've done this with my sister. My sister is brilliant. She'll, bit like me, talk to anyone, and then you know what, those people start chatting to us, like, Oh, what are you doing there? What are you up to? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, okay, so you know, we're not all like what you see on the TV and think it's put us in that stereotype box of, you know, I don't know, being aggressive or, you know, you know what I'm trying to say?
Sylvia
Yeah, you might be the first live one that they've seen.
Angela
Oh, yeah, exactly. And who's got a voice? Or spoken to, exactly. But going back to the Black Business Show, and one of the things that, again, the representation, I think it's really important, especially for young kids, is that I went with my friend Ayo. Remember Ayo and her son?
Sylvia
Yeah of course!
Angela
But his face when he saw your cards was just like, I thought, I get emotional now. It was just like they look like me. And it was just, he and, you know, you gave him the sticker, and I bought some cards from you. And honestly, we couldn’t stop talking about it afterwards, like, Oh, they're so cool. And, yeah, we have seen black cards in shops before, but I think yours, I don't know, obviously, you had different skin shades, and you had, like, different what they were wearing, what they were doing, the painter, the astronaut, you know, I was doing some dad's cards. They're always playing golf or something.
Sylvia
Bear, gardening, golf!
Angela
But he saw cards that, you know, there was a boy painting, and he's like, Oh, I paint kind of thing, you know. So it's all those kind of things. It's just that. And obviously more soI think for him, was the colour of his skin, and I thought that was really a beautiful sight to see. It was just so lovely seeing his face light up like that.
Another thing just leads me on to ask you about the Vitiligo Society. How come you got involved with that? Or why did you decide to include those in your cards? So I think it's really important too, because I think that is an area where people just think, I mean, now you see it lots more. You get the models that are coming out. They're on TV, but before it was seen as something that was to be, you know, covered up, not included, yeah.
Sylvia
When I was thinking about, so I had, and this is why, you know, in hindsight, the four year gap for me was good, because if I'd started four years ago, I just sort of had the four characters, the two mid brown, black characters, and the two Asian characters, who are lighter brown. The four years gave me a little bit of time to think about what I wanted to do. When I looked at it, what it was as well. I was thinking about a name for my company that went well.
Angela
It’s a perfect name, it’s you!
Sylvia
I want you to do something with like, I was thinking about doing something with melanin in the name. I was looking at melanin. And then I thought about, okay, so what about children who are really dark skinned children? Because you never really see very dark skinned black children on cards. Well, then I thought, Okay, what about really light skinned children? And then I was thinking about melanin. And I thought about it just, I don't know, my mind just took me down different tones, and then pigmentation. And then, oh, different types of pigmentation. Is it even, or if there's a lack of melanin? And that's what brought me to to albinism and vitiligo. Get the terminology correct. I Googled Vitiligo UK, I found the Vitiligo Society UK, who are a charity who support people with vitiligo, and they offer education so they've got like their board, and then they just do, like, public outreach. So I contacted them to ask them about the terminology. So, um, like, there's certain terminology around certain things. So you say somebody living with something, rather than naming them the thing. So somebody lives with albinism, they're not an albino, just…
Angela
Yes, just slightly change the words, yeah.
Sylvia
Yeah. And I wanted to make sure I got it right. So when I spoke to this woman who was the chair Abby, she was like, Oh, this is great. And then she said, they're trying to put together a school resource pack, and would I help them?
Angela
Wow.
Sylvia
And I said, well, yeah, so I ended up illustrating a school resource pack. The first one was for children up to the age of 12, and the second one was for teenagers. And it's like a resource pack that it comes together with. There's a PowerPoint slide presentation, and then there's a letter. If somebody's got a child with vitiligo, it's a resource that they can give to the child's teacher. There's a letter that goes out to parents to say, this is what it is, and blah, blah, blah. And then there's an assembly presentation that can be done. So there's two ways of looking at it. You can say, Oh, they're making this skin condition a thing. But at the same time, what it is, is it's educating people about what it is, because a lot of people don't know what it is, and then it bypasses the need for the awkward or rude or insensitive conversations at school and all of that stuff.
Angela
It's awareness too, isn't it? Letting their children know, as well as the teachers and yeah, obviously that child that's and also the child's living with it, can know that other people know what they what they have, because, yeah, you know, it's just that's really important, that's really powerful.
Sylvia
Yeah, so there's a bit in it that has case studies of real people. So you've got Winnie Harlow, who's the model who's got it. And then you've got some people in pop groups and people who are like The Only Way is Essex, and actors who have it as well. So they make a point of all of these people in these different areas who have it, and yeah, they're just getting on with their life, yeah.
Angela
So out of you googling to find out what you're doing for your business, finding out how to show representation in your designs, you come across the society, and now you're in schools. That is amazing!
Sylvia
Yeah. Do you know what? I didn't think about it? Yeah, I don't think about it like that. Wow.
Angela
That's such a powerful thing that you've done.
Sylvia
You know what? I never made that connection. So, yeah, my designs are in schools.
Angela
That's fantastic! You need to shout about that more.
Sylvia
I didn’t even think about it like that, you know, yeah, wow.
Angela
You could even, now we’re on the call. You could even, I'm sure your designs are copyrighted, but you could even paint in that and send that on to other schools and make something of it, couldn't you? And, like, spread awareness?
Sylvia
I mean, I think that’s what the Vitiligo Society are trying to do. They're trying to just raise awareness and get it out to to all, yeah.
Angela
Fantastic. Brilliant.
What is your future holding for you? What's next? Obviously, I know you've got your day job, but what's happening next with Sylvia Prince designs?
Sylvia
Okay, so I'm doing two trade shows next year, and I'm sort of trying to… so there are a few design things that I'm working on right now. I'm working on a set of playing cards.
Angela
Nice.
Sylvia
The only problem I've got is that I've got more characters than the four suits.
Angela
Yeah, yeah.
Sylvia
Yeah, so I'm just like, Ah, I don't know.
Angela
You’re going to have to make a decision!
Sylvia
And also, it's like, it sounds really random. I think about these things and are obsessed with it. I'm very conscious of which colour is the spade. Like it sounds…
Angela
That's interesting. So if people don't know, I think, well, I think if you're black and listening to this podcast, you would know that the word spade is a derogatory term for a black person, but, yeah, that's quite a hard one to… But, you know, isn't it an old in Old English, it's called a nave too, isn't it? Do you know what look that up maybe, I think it is. But even then, even if we know that symbol, the spade, everybody says spades. Don't know, you still call it a spade. So that's really, that's quite tricky.
Sylvia
Yeah but it’s just really, random things pop into my head. I’m doing colouring books and I’m doing a diary.
Angela
Oh that’d be amazing!
Sylvia
That’s probably going to be for 2026 because by the time I do it next year…
Angela
It’ll be time for the following year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or you can have it. You can have it undated. You know, sometimes people do diaries undated, but I know everyone would like 2026, but idea?
Sylvia
Yeah, it’ll be like around one of those journals, that my daughter loves so much.
Angela
Oh the wellness journal type thing, and they can write thoughts and affirmations and, Oh, that's wonderful.
Sylvia
And I'm trying to illustrate a series of children's books based on my characters. So there'll be a mixture of fiction and non-fiction - that's taking time. Because I need to have a format. So all of my characters, so at the moment, I've got 18 or 19, like 18 or 20 children. 18 of them have got profiles, so they've all got their own personality. So for example, my son, Ruben, he's into tech, and that's his real life thing. Naya loves animals, and she wanted to be a vet. That's her real life personality. Ella couldn't decide what she wanted to do. She wanted to be a journalist, a teacher, an illustrator, and all these different kinds of, so it was very intentional when I set them up, I knew I wanted to go down this route. So it's books about each child and their interest, but I have to work out a format that fits across all of the different occupations.
Angela
How do you fit this all in with your day job? Do you take time off? Do you take a day?
Sylvia
I don’t!
Angela
Oh, okay, I was gonna ask you, working weekends, are you taking days off to do it?
Sylvia
No I just lose sleep. Basically, I go to my bed late. Basically.
Angela
Oh wow. That’s just, well I can’t wait to see them! It’s going to be amazing when they do come out, but do get some sleep. Please. Like factor sleep in your day!
Sylvia
Thank you! Just concealer; you will be alright.
Angela
But I love, I can see the characters behind you, and I love on your website that you've got the characters on the website, and they've got their own little products and their own, and what they're up to. And it's just so cool. And obviously children seeing that, they can see themselves in there one day, and it's not the usual suspects of what characters or personalities we should be. So that's good to see. Yeah, I'm going to ask another question. And what would you tell your teenage self if you were, because obviously it sounds like you've always liked design, you've always liked art, but is there something that you would tell your teenage self about you now?
Sylvia
There's a few things. So I grew up in Brixton. One of them would probably be to buy a flat in Brixton. That'll be good.
Angela
Brixton is in London, and if anyone knows London house property prices, they’re worth millions now yeah!
Sylvia
But it wasn't like that when I was growing up in Brixton. But anyway, I would say that, don't be distracted by trying to be like everyone else. And I think a thing that you realise as an adult is that your difference is your superpower, but you don't know that when you're a teenager, just trying to fit in. So don't try to be like everyone else. It's okay for people not to like you. And no is a complete sentence. That's my thing. I've been very comfortable. I do a thing. If somebody asks me something, I honed this when I was doing my graphic design in a corporate that I didn't like, people would ask me, Can you do something? And I would say no, and I would say nothing else after, and just very, I learned to be very comfortable with that awkward silence, because sometimes when you're in a position that people expect you to do things, you say, Well, no, oh, I can't really do that, but I'll see if I can fit in you. You talk yourself around to a yes when really just should have left a no. And I've learned to say no and say nothing after and just look at the person.
Angela
Just give a side eye! Just wait, see what happens!
Sylvia
Just look, just wow, yeah. And then they'll be like…
Angela
They'll realise.
Sylvia
And then they just have to go. And I think a lot of times, we end up doing things that we don't want to do because it's, it's been programmed into us, especially as women, we're supposed to be make everybody happy. So you end up betraying yourself and doing, you end up in situations that you don't want to be in because you're thinking about the other person rather than yourself. So that's what I would tell my younger self, because I think you feel like you have to do what everybody else does, otherwise people won't like you. As a teenage girl, specifically, I'm perfectly happy for people not to like me, but I can only say that now..
Angela
Because you've had the life experience of it as a teen. Well, Sylvia, I'm so glad you said yes to me coming on this podcast.
Sylvia
Absolutely. Listen. The energy that you and Ayo bought when you came to my stand. Do you know when you see, you meet people and they make you smile. Yeah, that's the energy that you two have.
Angela
So, what I like to do with my guests too, is do a quick fire, fun, five questions. It's either one or the other. Okay, don't worry. It's okay. So first one, crips or chocolates?
Sylvia
Chocolate. All day, every day.
Angela
Beach or forest?
Sylvia
Beach. I don't like bugs. Beach.
Angela
Beach, okay? Book or Kindle?
Sylvia
Book.
Angela
Reggae or soul?
Sylvia
Oh, it's got to be soul. You know, Soul groove is my favorite. It's got to be soul really,.
Angeela
Yeah, nice, nice.
Sylvia
Oh that's a horrible question.
Angela
I know, isn't it, a lot of people have said that, tere was one guy I asked and he said no I’m not answering!
Sylvia
It's terrible. Wow. It’s mean.
Angela
Last one, patty, or a sandwich?
Sylvia
Patty, but in a cocoa bread.
Angela
So Patty, in cocoa bread, So a patty sandwich?
Sylvia
Patty, Patty all day. Yeah.
Angela
Brilliant. See Sylvia. You’ve made me laugh, and you just made me smile. And again, like we said about the Black Business Show, when I met you, you were just all smiles. When we saw you, we were just like, loved it. So how can people find you, and where can they find you?
Sylvia
So I've got a website, which is https://www.sylviaprince.com/ so my name and I am Sylvia Prince Designs on Instagram and Facebook, but I mainly post most of my stuff on Instagram.
Angela
Instagram, brilliant. And I'll in the notes, I will put all the links there so people can connect with you, and obviously buy your cards and your bookmarks, and next year, the journals and all sorts of things going on. So…
Sylvia
Pressure!
Angela
You know, I want to see you in like, the big stores like John Lewis and Sainsbury's or Tesco. Need to be in there. So we can't wait to see you in those places. That's the plan. Keep going. Keep going. You’re doing amazing. Remember, just like, picture all those kids faces, where they can receive your cards too.
Sylvia
That's why, that's why I keep doing it. It's really great when I see somebody. Is that,
Oh it looks like me!
Angela
And I love this one, so I'm just gonna jot this one down if I know it's an audio podcast, but I've got this one this I bought this card for me. And things with cards, I always buy them, right? And I always intend to give them to people, but I was like, Oh, I really like this one oh I’ll have to go and buy another one now.
Sylvia
Yes, buy another one.
Angela
I’ll buy anther one! This one, let's tell the listeners. It's a lady of Afro and she's actually got Afro comb earrings, and they just look so cool. Are they Afro comb earrings? They are, aren't they?
Sylvia
Yeah, they are.
Angela
Brilliant. Thank you, Sylvia. It's so wonderful chatting to you and yeah, we'll speak soon, I'm sure, and see you soon. Take care.
Sylvia
Thank you, Ange.
Outro
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